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Horseman
Philosopher
3/13/2008 9:51:42 PM
PostID: 211068
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This thread is for players and DM's to discuss whatever is on their mind. The last one was so much fun we filled 100 pages with 2000 posts.
Welcome All
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SkaldSyrcha
Scribe
3/13/2008 10:05:28 PM
PostID: 211077
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hmm what is on my mind, what could be on my mind?! oh right.
Sigmae accuses Lotan of Conspiracy against the West and Aquitania. (and has a nice number of papers and witnesses to offer up as evidence)
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tsuyoshikentsu
Destroyer of Worlds
3/13/2008 11:56:18 PM
PostID: 211097
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Gasp! Major things!
By the way, all, I've met up with Alexandre. I think this counts me as a Major Player (TM) now.
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Horseman
Philosopher
3/14/2008 3:59:50 AM
PostID: 211126
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Well the Players are certainly making the DM's work, at least me anyway. It's all good stuff. We've got a knock down drag out in the senate going, The Battle of the Aube River, and soon the Battle at Nijmegen as well. Plus we have three new fiefdoms we're hammering out details on; Aldane in the care of Sir Godart, Trier in the care of Jonas and, and crap, I'm so tired I can't remember the third.
Good Night!
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SkaldSyrcha
Scribe
3/16/2008 6:24:57 AM
PostID: 211516
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In my opinion good jokes are meant to be shared - particularly if they happen in real life.
So without further ado. I give you MY NAME COFFEE
A little bit of background, my coffemaker has been broken for 4 months. There is no way I can make coffee, and I was getting desperate to have my own pot at home. So! Ta Ta Ta! I go to LoneKnight's house with a 3 liter empty soda bottle and some pizza. Bribe LK with the Pizza and brew up a good 12 cups for myself around midnight.
Carefully pour hot coffee over sink into plastic soda bottle, go home. Well I get home and I remmember my dad hates coffee. And I just know he would do the following: Pick up soda bottle with missing cap, think: oooh soda! Pour himself a big glass. Drink supposed soda. Choke. Say, "This soda is bad!" Dump coffee down kitchen sink.
I know this because it's happened to me twice before when I poured coffee into unusual containers.
So I find a big bold bright red marker, and I write in two lines:
COFFEE
MY NAME
So morning comes around and he storms downstairs demanding to know about the soda bottle. So I say, Dammit, leave my stuff alone, you poured it down the sink didn't you?!
and he says, "No I didn't. Why is the bottle saying OFFE YOUR NAME, what's going on? WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR DOING?!
So I said, "No, go back and read it again, it says Coffee! I wrote it so you wouldn't dump it." Meanwhile he's glaring at every window I have open, scrutinizing my artwork for the new firefox with that hard stare.
Until I interrupt him and tell him, that I really have only 16 more hours before the contest deadline runs up on me, and to please let me work in peace.
So apparently he thought I left a suicide note in red marker on a soda bottle filled with coffee in the kitchen, and he didn't think to turn the bottle to read the entire message on it.
Anyhow, had to get that one off my mind by writing it all down so I can focus.
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LoneKnight
Reputed Adventurer
3/16/2008 10:42:30 AM
PostID: 211552
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Regarding the lance issue. I don't believe D&D made lances to break not wanting to go into the physicas of all of it. In truth a lance should cost no where as much as it does in the book.
As far as lances breaking I think you should all take a look at this article you really wouldn't want your lance to survive the impact because if it does you might not.
MASS (of Horse and Rider) X VELOCITY = FORCE OF IMPACT.
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php
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Snaebjorn
3/16/2008 11:04:06 AM
PostID: 211555
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Lances break. If it don't break then what you have is a knight carrying a battering ram waiting for his shoulder to be ripped from its socket.
This is a personal lesson I learned thinking that a big stick is the same as a lance. Got on a bike and peddled as fast as I could towards a friend who also had a big stick on a bike. Both of us where wearing sheets of steel with lots of pillows under it. (Hey it was closer then the trash can lid a friend wanted to use.) I hit him square on and realized that even just holding the stick I was in trouble. I got ripped off my bike and dislocated my shoulder and he got a serious ass headache from the whiplash.
We both ended up in the emergency room.
Lesson here. If the lance doesn't break on impact then either you glanced or you got broke.
I'm not giving any solid evidence here. Just personal experience. I've since found out that lances were made from easily broken wood. Wish I'd learned that at 12 instead of 22. (When I actually did research on the subject.)
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tsuyoshikentsu
Destroyer of Worlds
3/16/2008 12:34:08 PM
PostID: 211569
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Can you link me to that? I've seen research stating that lances hardly ever broke and were made of stout oak.
As to the physics of it, both of you are right. However, because a lance is pointed it makes it a little better (the force from the impact is dispersed a bit over the wider area on the knight's end) and, generally speaking, it's the other guy that gives. For instance, I bet that with a well-aimed hit your arm would have been aching and your friend's neck broken, Bjorn.
EDIT:
MASS (of Horse and Rider) X VELOCITY = FORCE OF IMPACT.
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php
...You didn't read the article, did you?
The entire point of that article is that merely applying F=ma is a flawed assumption. (Fascinating read, though.)
This post last edited on 3/16/2008 12:50:14 PM
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Snaebjorn
3/16/2008 6:13:29 PM
PostID: 211635
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Oak actually splits very very very easily. Don't believe me go buy an oak board. Hit it on the grain with a hammer with a good amount of force and it will likely split.
Oak is very dense and very strong. Provided you do not hit it on the grain. To get a lance to its proper length you would follow the grain. The force of the impact would split it six ways to sunday.
The other thing is the fact you are talking about riding into battle with a weapon that would weigh well in the 40-50 pound range. Perhaps 30 if its thinner then most. No knight would do something nearly that foolish. A weapon that heavy would unbalance the rider at best and would flat out exhaust him from holding it up within 10 minutes.
Try holding up a 5 gallon jug of water under your arm while riding a bicycle or a horse. Now imagine the massive weight is also 8-10 feet long and its balance is in front of your hand. (Where the majority of lances would have their balance was right near the front of the hand. You can hold up easily right there but it still isn't as nice as it could be.)
Using oak for a lance would be like having a sword made out of lead. It may do lots of damage but it isn't going to be used for very long.
As for my friend and I. Yeah. He could've had his neck broken. My arm would've still been damaged pretty bad though. We had the grips made so it wouldn't slide back in our hands and it was belted to our sides. (Armour had notches that lances sat in so they could not move.) I wouldn't make bets that I would've been hurt much less.
As for F=ma being a flawed concept. I'd beg to differ. I've seen a ping pong ball wrapped in blue foam (camp pads at wal mart) then duct taped that was swung on a 2 foot string from a handle hit a breastplate made from 12 gauge stainless steel and leave a 1/2 inch dent on impact. No the person swinging wasn't some superman. He swung the ball around in a circle 6 times before hitting and that was the result.
Centrifugal force is a damn good example of F=ma
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tsuyoshikentsu
Destroyer of Worlds
3/16/2008 6:29:17 PM
PostID: 211638
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F=ma isn't flawed. It's proven. As the article points out, what is flawed about its application is people treating the lance, horse and rider as one object.
Seriously, the thing's worth reading.
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Horseman
Philosopher
3/17/2008 12:36:02 AM
PostID: 211695
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A couple of quick announcements
First I don't know who remembers, but I leave on the 23rd of March and won't be back until the 15 April. I will be in a remote 3d world country, so there's no chance of posting.
Second. Loneknight has told me that this will coincide with the Early Spring Fair in Aachen. So, to stay busy you all can attend the Fair if you like.
Gibbon will be handling the Sea Griffons in my absence.
The Senate will have completed their vote and will go into recess.
I am asking Rasgorn to continue the Battle of the Aube.
Epic Wiz, I am going to ask Rasgorn to keep you busy too.
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tsuyoshikentsu
Destroyer of Worlds
3/17/2008 1:35:36 AM
PostID: 211700
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Which country?
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Horseman
Philosopher
3/17/2008 2:17:28 AM
PostID: 211708
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After Constantijn last tactic at the Battle of the Aube, I would say he's a Major player!
Concerning Lances
I read the article. It is a very good article and my mind wandered the whole time about how to put this in game terms and my own mounted experiences. There's a few key points I picked up on, the idea the rider is a shock absorber and the one that delivers the blow, injuries while riding head on(personal experience), aiming for the head, lances breaking.
I will ramble a bit, and tell you far more about me than you want to know, bear with me I'm typing off the top of my head.
I did not choose my log on name of Horseman by chance. I grew up with horse on a ranch, and often day dreamed of ages past, knights and the like. I was a passive participant on a horse either. I rode them for work, entertainment, competition, romance and just for the hell of it. There was a long period in my life when I ate slept and drank horses. If you looked at my modest library you might be surprised at the number of horse books I have, let alone that were printed. I have books that deal solely with horses of the Roman Army and the Medieval Horse. I am a college trained, certified farrier. A farrier is part horseshoer, part blacksmith, part vetrinarian. I have saved horses from death, and killed them because there was no chance of quality of life. There is a certain pride and invulnerability to a horseman. Why, because there is a certain honesty that the horse demands. Probably any animal you are training. You truly get out what you put in, generally. But in the end horses are just like people. Some are born to Michael Jordan, fast, athletic, charismatic, a natural bornd leader and athelete; while others are Charles Manson, turn your back on them and they'll kill you. I've known old horses I haven't seen in years I could walk up to in the pasture pet, say hello, hop on bareback and take for a little trot, while I have also been run out of a corral by a 1600 pound horse with evil eyes, coming at me striking and biting.
It's a different culture, and not one you can readily understand as an outsider. I can tell you from my experience the guy that wrote that article talks from experience. When he talked about getting his worst injury by hitting another man's knee in a charge it quickly brought back a similiar injury I suffered playing what we called Combat Polo. For a time in the Army I rode horses in a ceremonial unit. We would play polo for fun occasionally. We played with polo mallets and a softball or a soccer ball or a red ball, whatever we had. There we basically no rules. You could push over, run over another horse and rider, hit riders with mallets(but not horses), reach out and pull another riders reins with your mallet, reach down in close contact and un-cinch another riders saddle, whatever. The only rule was, don't seriously hurt a horse. But riders, hey go for it. I and another rider collided knee to knee as the author described in the article, I was lame for a couple weeks on that one, it not only banged up my knee, but hurt my hip the most. But being a cowboy, you don't let on. You just grit your teeth and go on. That's something about horse cultures, their very tough. Probably because if your around horses you will get hurt, and badly, sooner or later. It's accepted, a badge of honor in a way.
So in the article the author hinted that the horse itself was an intimitading as the man atop him with the lance. In game terms that's a moral check. I forgot to have the infantry at the Battle of Aube make a moral check. Probably a good thing for Godart and crew considering the flagellant spells.
The author also talked about the help of stirrups and what they meant to the knight, how he would joust without them. I have never formally jousted. Played around with a long pole on a horse, but never really jousted. I can say holding a pole out infront of a horse is difficult, you need a good portion of the weight behind you to even hold it. What the author doesn't go into is what is called LEAD on a horse. If your horse is not on the right lead you can't hit crap. Lead is the foot the horse is moving on, they can lead with their left or right. At first glance it wouldn't seem to matter, but it does. While we didn't do lance work in the Army we did do a lot of Sabre work. We always wanted to use watermelons for our sabre quals, but didn't have access to a lot of watermelons, so we used pumpkins instead, doing our quals right after Halloween. Pumpkins are tough, with some force and decent aim a Cav Sabre goes through them, usually glancing off and making a crecent shaped slice. If you weren't on the right lead it was very difficult to get a good hit, especially a slash attack, while an overhand thrust was all timing, and it didn't matter so much what lead your horse was on. The toughest attach was the target that was an offhand slash. You had to slash the target on your left side, holding the Sabre in your right. I can say without stirrups, I don't know if I could make that attack. It was quite common to ride without stirrups in the McClellan saddle, as shown in the article pic, and it actually was part of the test to get on the team. The reason is was part of the test is that it was common for stirrup leathers to break, as the author noted. As the author noted I too have kicked both feet out of the stirrups when one breaks, though I have rode with only one too, situation dictates.
I can full see how the rider is a shock absorber between the lance and horse. This is a new idea for me, but makes sense. While I do believe that in later years when jousting was no longer used much in war, and just tourney, the riders were more apt to brace against the stirrups and hit the opponent with full force trying to get to dismount the enemy and get the win.
This takes us to gameplay. Much to Tijn's chagrine I have insisted lances break often. The author does note that lances broke often, but doesn't go into it in detail. However he does note, to my surprise, that the head was a common target. It dawned on me how much sense that made. If you get a hit on the head, you're going to kill or disable your opponent, and probably still have your lance for another attack. He also stated that the rider greatly controls the amount of force of the hit on the target, which takes us to an entirely other level in gameplay(if we want it to).
So the question to us now is what to do with all this great information the author has given us?
This is what I see for options
1. The rider gages how much force he wants to apply to a hit, 1x, 2x or 3x damage.
2. PC's can call head shots per rules, or go for general hits. If they make a head shot they will have no chance of breaking a lance. If they go for a general hit, they have a chance of breaking a lance.
3. Make a standard Moral modifier for infantry against cavalry.
I'm in this pic
and a video of those that followed me
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5662892295172929564
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SkaldSyrcha
Scribe
3/17/2008 3:11:54 AM
PostID: 211716
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Horseman, the white horse in the video was your avatar last year? I thought the performance was much better than anything I've seen in New York!
This post last edited on 3/17/2008 3:21:02 AM
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Horseman
Philosopher
3/17/2008 3:35:56 AM
PostID: 211719
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For a time I rode the lead grey, the white. Not that it matters but commanders would typically ride an off color horse, so all the troops could easily recognize them on the battlefield. General Lee's own Traveler was a grey horse.
That routine has been long standing with the unit. What you really don't see, or hear is the sabre clashes as the riders pass each other. The lead rider sticking their sabre in the lost hat is an old tradition, and the guy that lost the hat is mad because he is not only embarrased, but he is charged a fine of buying ALL the beer for the unit that night.
Nerds Note
There are technically no white horses, only shades of grey. White is a recessive, terminal gene in horses. I saw an albino foal once, it lived for 4 weeks, one of the longer living white horses in history, but it died.
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SkaldSyrcha
Scribe
3/17/2008 5:28:52 AM
PostID: 211737
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Contest 1 happily entered. :)
Trouble at home continues, it seemed to be getting better for a day, but now. Now it continues twice as bad as it was 2 days ago, I'm wondering when it will get worse. My father's health is failing. The horse video cheered me up for a little while at least.
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Snaebjorn
3/17/2008 9:58:11 AM
PostID: 211805
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Horseman.
You just gained a couple of serious "cool" points by saying you are a farrier. Its a job I've thought about quite a lot doing. Only thing is I can't afford the schooling necessary.
Thank you for that glimpse into your personal life as well. Its really amazing to know you used to be Cavalry. I remember watching the cavalry unit practice at Ft. Drum when I was little just before my father retired. Always thought it was amazing to see and thought about being that some day. Grew up and realized that me in the army wasn't a good idea.
Me and my family are hoping to get some riding lessons this year. I have a friend who has a few horses. If I can get the farmhouse I want to get then I may get a few myself for riding. One of my friends though is a really amazing trainer and used to train horses for a Ren Faire where they demanded the horses be able to do war maneuvers like rearing hoof strikes and similar stuff. They told me if I ever got a horse and learned how to ride well enough they'd teach me those tricks. Probably won't happen soon but it would be cool to learn.
Skald. Sorry to hear about your father and all that. I'll hope for the best for ya.
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LoneKnight
Reputed Adventurer
3/17/2008 1:24:26 PM
PostID: 211886
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The spring fair will be starting early. I will be starting it this sunday on the 23rd.
A couple notes of interest you will receive 1/3rd xp for any combats you win. Skald or myself will award the xp immediately upon completion of each such fight.
Also just like the first spring fair you have to be defeated twice to be eliminated from the event.
There will be some randomness to it all but don't worry about going up against an opponent right away you can't take. Your current character level will affect what table your put on. I'm not going to put Jin or Alexander up against Bjorn or Luther in the sword fighting competition. Well I will if you somehow manage to last that long. The same for Bjorn and Luther I’m not going to put them up against level 1's to start with.
Also if anyone would like to contribute colorful npc characters ideas for the competition I’d love to hear from you. If you created one of the guilds perhaps you could write up a character sheet for that individual if you think they might go to the torney.
The tourney is open to all even Lorraine enemies and those there not on friendly terms with. So that could be urokai, magyar, hyborians, hykarians, pretty much anyone.
Also there are non combat competitions
For chess you get 200 xp for winning round 1 and 400 xp for round 2, etc.
For original story telling and songs 1000 xp for third place, 3,000 for second place and 5,000 for first place. 500 xp for making a good honest attempt and participating.
I was impressed by Gibbons asking riddles about the exploits of pc characters in the Christmas thread. So pick a pc other then one of your own and write a small ballad or some dramatic story about their exploits. These songs and stories will then become part of RLH that a dm may use somewhere down the line :o).
When it’s done we’ll have everyone select there favorites and send LoneKnight and SkaldSyrcha a pm with your vote so we can determine our winners. And no you can't vote for your own submission.
The tourney should take no longer then 8 weeks to compete. So if you can't come up with a story or a song right off the bat you have a little time. The vote won't happen until the end and the victors announced at the award ceremony.
Also I am completly open to any suggestions anyone would like to contribute :o)
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LoneKnight
Reputed Adventurer
3/17/2008 1:26:20 PM
PostID: 211888
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The spring fair will be starting early. I will be starting it this sunday on the 23rd.
A couple notes of interest you will receive 1/3rd xp for any combats you win. Skald or myself will award the xp immediately upon completion of each such fight.
Also just like the first spring fair you have to be defeated twice to be eliminated from the event.
There will be some randomness to it all but don't worry about going up against an opponent right away you can't take. Your current character level will affect what table your put on. I'm not going to put Jin or Alexander up against Bjorn or Luther in the sword fighting competition. Well I will if you somehow manage to last that long. The same for Bjorn and Luther I’m not going to put them up against level 1's to start with.
Also if anyone would like to contribute colorful npc characters ideas for the competition I’d love to hear from you. If you created one of the guilds perhaps you could write up a character sheet for that individual if you think they might go to the torney.
The tourney is open to all even Lorraine enemies and those there not on friendly terms with. So that could be urokai, magyar, hyborians, hykarians, pretty much anyone.
Also there are non combat competitions
For chess you get 200 xp for winning round 1 and 400 xp for round 2, etc.
For original story telling and songs 1000 xp for third place, 3,000 for second place and 5,000 for first place. 500 xp for making a good honest attempt and participating.
I was impressed by Gibbons asking riddles about the exploits of pc characters in the Christmas thread. So pick a pc other then one of your own and write a small ballad or some dramatic story about their exploits. These songs and stories will then become part of RLH that a dm may use somewhere down the line :o).
When it’s done we’ll have everyone select there favorites and send LoneKnight and SkaldSyrcha a pm with your vote so we can determine our winners. And no you can't vote for your own submission.
The tourney should take no longer then 8 weeks to compete. So if you can't come up with a story or a song right off the bat you have a little time. The vote won't happen until the end and the victors announced at the award ceremony.
Also I am completly open to any suggestions anyone would like to contribute :o)
There is no limit in the number of competitions you can enter and you have nothing to loose and everything to gain so enjoy yourself.
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Snaebjorn
3/17/2008 2:01:55 PM
PostID: 211895
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The bardic competition only open to stories about the other PCs or can we tell some old tales as well?
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