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zilonox
Honored Guide
1/21/2011 8:49:12 AM
PostID: 389455
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Based on an a series of articles posted on the At-Will blog (Part 1, 2, 3, 4), I'm thinking of using the following system in a 4E Dark Sun game I'm going to run and was hoping for some discussion on the issue. What's good about it? What's bad about it? What would you do differently?
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust.
This post last edited on 1/21/2011 8:56:28 AM 
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zilonox
Honored Guide
1/21/2011 8:49:19 AM
PostID: 389456
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Money and Rewards
BACKGROUND
4E is designed to level a character approximately every 10 encounters. It's concept of treasure parcels goes hand in hand with this as (in general) one treasure parcel is given out after every encounter. Over the course of the ten encounters/treasure parcels, you get four magic items (one Level+4, one Level+3, one Level+2 and one Level+1) and enough gold to buy two magic items of Level+0.
The coin aspect of this doesn't really make sense in a world like Dark Sun, where the natural resources have been severely depleted. On top of that, with the use of Inherent Bonuses, the importance of items is lessened somewhat, which means the amount of money necessary to keep up with the 4E power curve is lessened as well. Given this, I am making the following changes to both the treasure parcel system and the mechanics of shopping as well.
CHANGES
I will still be using treasure parcels, but will be replacing the monetary portion of the parcels with Karma tokens. Each token will replace approximately 5% of the total of the monetary portion of the parcels at each level, meaning you will gain 20 tokens per level. Each token will indicate at what level it was earned for reasons explained below.
So, what can you do with the tokens? 10 tokens of a given level will buy a permanent magic item of that level. 2 tokens of a given level will buy a consumable magic item or ritual of that level. But their use does not end there. Here are some examples of how else they might be used. Keep in mind this is not an exhaustive list, but rather is designed to spark imagination.
- Suppose you stumble upon an oasis just after your water has run out. Expend a level 1 token and your karma ensures that it will be pure (as per the "Purify Water" ritual, or use of "Clearwater Solution").
- In desperate need of a healing potion while in a dungeon? Expend the appropriate karma tokens and there will be one in the next parcel (in addition to what you would normally get).
- Need to get into an otherwise restricted area? A large enough "bribe" (represented by spent tokens, but could be just about anything in game including money, favors, threats, etc.) just might do the trick.
- Need a favor from the local nobility? Your karma just might help you out.
- Combat not going your way? A Dragonborn might spend a level 7 token during combat to gain the use of an "Elixir of Dragonbreath", thus blasting her breath weapon more often than normal.
- Something horrible coming down the hall – something you DON'T want getting into the room you currently occupy? Spend a level 6 token and, as karma would have it, the door sticks soundly as you shut it (as per "Mordenkainen's Joining").
- Just got in trouble with the local constable? Isn't it fortunate (karmic?) that the captain of the guard is an old friend that you haven't seen in many years who is willing to help you out this one time?
- Rather than kill the drake, you decided to beat it into submission and then train it as your mount. Your karma can help you with that.
Some of the above examples will require adjudication on the DM's part, but I feel this is a better use of resources than carrying around huge sums of coinage.
Tokens of various levels can be traded up (or down) at a 2:1 (or 1:2) ratio. That is, you may trade two level 3 tokens for a level 4 token, or you could trade a level 6 token for two level 5 tokens. You may trade down as far as you wish, but you may never trade up more than your level+3.
Just like money found adventuring, tokens belong to the group as a whole and should not be spent without party consent, unless the party has agreed before hand to allow discretionary spending by the individuals.
RAMIFICATIONS
I feel this system prevents the unbalancing of the economy, especially in a world like Dark Sun. Can you imagine the havoc that would be created by dropping thousands of coins (doesn't matter if they are ceramic or metallic) into the hands of a single merchant in Urik?
This does mean, however, that some items/rituals may wind up costing a bit more than normal, and some might wind up costing a bit less than normal. But I feel it should even out in the long run.
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust.
This post last edited on 1/21/2011 8:52:29 AM
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Underworld
Stalwart Guardian
1/21/2011 3:23:04 PM
PostID: 389495
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It sounds very much like a Super Mario Bros (or similar) computer game; run around and collect coins and spend them at will. What happens to them when they are spent? "Something horrible coming down the hall – something you DON'T want getting into the room you currently occupy? Spend a level 6 token ..." What happens to the token? Does it vanish into thin air? If so, why worry about the economy of a world where money comes and goes so easily? What happened to good old fashioned role playing?
I have a soft spot for the Dark Sun world; always have. It is an extremely harsh game world to survive in and makes players role play like they wouldn't on others. Lawful Good on Dark Sun is not the same as Lawful Good on Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. There is nothing fair about the Dark Sun world and it would be a shame to see a system being put in just to make it fair or easy. If I joined a Dark Sun game I would be expecting something different, something challenging with character death a high possibility. Otherwise it is just like most other D&D games.
I hope you don't mind a harsh review Z. You have put a lot of time into this site Z and have given generously so I have the highest respect for you so please don't take this as a personal attack. It definitely isn't. It is just my honest opinion; feel free to ignore it.
There are some great things which can be leveraged in Dark Sun to make it unique which isn't possible in other game worlds. If you're open to ideas I would be happy to discuss them. (Disclaimer: my Dark Sun experience is using 2E and 3.5E so maybe these ideas won't translate into 4E rules.)
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Jeeeeoker
Haggler
1/21/2011 5:25:25 PM
PostID: 389510
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UW, I think they're not physical tokens in the game world, but rather chips on the gaming table representing a character's capacity to have resources become available when they need them.
I like the idea of wealth being represented numerous ways outside of currency. But there's also an element of convenience being added, which has a value greater than money can buy, which is probably what UW is concerned about. If you approach a pool of water, all the money in the world won't guarantee that the water is pure. One would need the foresight to have purchased a purification scroll from the last town. If the players know that a supply of tokens will grant them whatever they need, it somewhat reduces their responsibility for their own predicaments.
Karma tokens can work, but attention should be paid to how much control the player has over the situation. The token shouldn't act as an "oh shit" button, or "get out of trouble free" card, like the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th examples. But the other examples work, because they're being used to influence people (or drakes) into providing goods and services, which is exactly what money does. The trick is that you still need someone to provide those goods and services.
One more note: Would someone with a large amount of karma attract thieves, beggars, mercenaries, and sycophants as easily as someone carrying sacks of gold? If so, how might that work? Perhaps the destitute can recognize a tangible divine favour in the bearing of a rich person, and hope to syphon some off by standing in proximity...
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zilonox
Honored Guide
1/24/2011 9:14:22 AM
PostID: 389758
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You both make excellent points, and no offense taken, Underworld.
Jeeeeoker is right, though, about the tokens being a player resource and not a character resource. From the character perspective, they will see less money than normal. On the flip side, however, they will more often find fate shifted in their favor as the players use the karma tokens.
In a world like Dark Sun, you won't find Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in every city-state for a variety of reason. You will find, however, traders that have unique items found by other adventurers or wanderers in the ancient ruins that occasionally surface from beneath the dunes of the vast desert-scape. It would be the heroes karma that allows them to meet a merchant who just happens to have recently acquired such an item.
I personally like the idea of heroes performing good deeds and earning karma for those deeds, which in turn gives them a survival edge the general populace does not have (keeping in mind that "good" is a very relative term in a world like Dark Sun). Which is why I'm okay with the use of a karma token to ensure that a spring is fresh. Just because the spring was fresh the first time they encounter it does not mean it will be so the next time. While reckless squandering of the karma resource can make life very easy for a while, once it's used up it's back to being bit-less in the harsh brutality of the burning sands.
I could see NPC's eventually coming to realize that good/lucky things tend to happen around a certain group of people (the party), and therefore try to find a way to capitalize on it. Perhaps the party acquires a moon-eyed devotee who's a bit more unbalanced than he appears to be. Or perhaps a group of thugs begin shadowing the party, assaulting those that the party does business with rather than the party itself since the party has shown an uncanny knack for escaping or besting the thugs. Or perhaps the dreaded rust monster can be reworked into some sort of karma eater. Interesting ideas... =)
I am certainly open to tinkering with the system, like perhaps adjusting the price of spontaneous items (like in the case of the spring) upwards with the addition of a "convenience fee" or some such. This is just my first, non-playtested version of another non-playtested thought experiment. While I like the concept, I do understand that it may completely unbalance a game. Which is why I posted here, to see what pitfalls I missed and find a way to deal with them. =)
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust.
This post last edited on 1/24/2011 9:15:23 AM
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Jeeeeoker
Haggler
1/24/2011 6:38:43 PM
PostID: 389798
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A cost multiplier system could work. If you need an effect during an encounter, you pay 4x the karma tokens (like an extra use of an encounter power). If you need an effect between encounters in a dungeon (like healing, or a ritual effect), you pay 3x the karma tokens. And if you need an effect in a roleplaying situation (like purifying a spring), you pay 2x the tokens. Or something like that. And when you're in a civilized area (or in contact with a stable nomadic group), you can call in advance what effects you think you'll need, and spend the tokens at normal cost, as if you were buying potions and scrolls and material components, even though there's nobody selling such things.
Thieves may be replaced with cursed individuals, for whom trouble follows wherever they go. Contact with such people can bring on negative effects to counter the karma that would have been "stolen", unless someone make a skill check to detect their malignant nature. If you really hate your players, you can make some of those negative effects delayed until later on. Enemies in the next encounter seem to have buff effects active, or a sudden sandstorm on the road forces a round of fort saves.
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Lord_Lut
Mindless Zombie
1/25/2011 9:28:37 AM
PostID: 389868
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how about negative karma as well?
The players are rewarded for winning like normal, but if they do poorly in a skills challange or do something partiularly stupid (this is a trap... idk how to disable it so we'll just set it off instead *push button* oh crap the pally's down) then a streak of misfortune strikes them.
This could also work if they decide to stockpile their karma as a sort of counter-balance, and could work like thieves targeting them. They store it up, and bad karma starts to build up as well.
*brainstorms...*
You don't need a book to roleplay
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If you can think of it, and explain why you think it could work, I will figure out a way to let you try
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LordOmega
Distinguished Socialite
1/25/2011 10:16:03 AM
PostID: 389874
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All this karma talks has made me think of 'My name is Earl.'
“Come now. Your talking about me. I’m very persuasive. I’m the one that got that prostitute to pay me to have sex with her.” Ell the Bard
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Lord_Lut
Mindless Zombie
1/25/2011 11:11:00 AM
PostID: 389879
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i kinda want to see an orc introduce himself as earl ;-)
You don't need a book to roleplay
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If you can think of it, and explain why you think it could work, I will figure out a way to let you try
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Jeeeeoker
Haggler
1/25/2011 5:46:58 PM
PostID: 389904
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I would expect that if they do something stupid, they all die. And if they do poorly in a skill challenge, the consequences of that failure are their own punishment. Losing their pally, for example...
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